Curse

Paul Dawg · Jul 25, 2009, 03:52 AM // 03:52

It works much better than a HB bar because the elite is WoH, which is spammable and highly efficient in that the bonus kicks in precisely when you need it. What non-elite healing skill would take the place of WoH if you used HB? I don't see any. You'd be left with something mediocre like orison of healing.

Anyway, try my bar before you criticize it. It's especially good with a MM so that you can take full advantage of dwayna's sorrow.

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Originally Posted by traversc

Regardless, that build suffers the exact same problems as HB. You have 3 spammable heals on that bar. If the answer for that build is channeling, it seems like it should work just as well on an HB monk.

Pocketmancer · Jul 25, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Personally, I've never seen Channeling provide adequate e-management for heroes unless they use nothing but 5 energy costing spells. The way healing heroes run around like headless chickens when attacked tends to move them out of the area to get full feedback from Channeling. Then again, heroes generally suck with e-management anyway unless it's soul reaping.. You just gotta figure out ways to "trick" them into using it if you don't want to micro it.

AtomicMew · Jul 25, 2009, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

It works much better than a HB bar because the elite is WoH, which is spammable and highly efficient in that the bonus kicks in precisely when you need it. What non-elite healing skill would take the place of WoH if you used HB? I don't see any. You'd be left with something mediocre like orison of healing.

Well, I don't see why you need 3 spammable heals in the first place, but that's off topic. HB takes Dwayna's kiss, PS and possibly orison or ethereal light.

WoH bonus is a conditional +100 while with HB, everything has an UNconditional ~+50. The condition for WoH isn't met as often as you think it is. (That becomes obvious if you give your heroes ZB). But even if WoH bonus were met every time, the bonus from HB is still at least equivalent averaged out.

Quote:

Anyway, try my bar before you criticize it. It's especially good with a MM so that you can take full advantage of dwayna's sorrow.

Dwayna's sorrow and vigorous spirit make for very energy efficient heals, but it is indirect heals, which means a lot of the time, the efficiency is wasted. I don't think it replaces stronger e-management for more spot heals you get as a necro primary.

At any rate, I would never run a pure healer on a hero, even a monk. That's incredibly inefficient use of bar space. When I've been required to use monk heroes, I've made them smiters.

Paul Dawg · Jul 25, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

So basically you're saying that you still haven't tried the bar, AND you're agreeing with me that primary necroes are more useful overall than monk healers. (I couldn't have stated that more clearly; hell, I even bolded it.)

For what it's worth, Dwayna's sorrow is probably the most efficient healing skill in the whole game because, again, it kicks in right when you need it. When minions are dying all over the place, it's because the party has just faced an immense AoE bomb and red bars are down everywhere. Then you get little blue +47's all over the screen--and all for 5e! By the same token, I find vigorous spirit more efficient than just about all of the more expensive prot skills (heroes use vigorous spirit like a prot skill) because an active toon will almost always fight itself out of danger with it--and all for 5e!

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Dwayna's sorrow and vigorous spirit make for very energy efficient heals, but it is indirect heals, which means a lot of the time, the efficiency is wasted. I don't think it replaces stronger e-management for more spot heals you get as a necro primary.

At any rate, I would never run a pure healer on a hero, even a monk. That's incredibly inefficient use of bar space. When I've been required to use monk heroes, I've made them smiters.

AtomicMew · Jul 26, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

So basically you're saying that you still haven't tried the bar, AND you're agreeing with me that primary necroes are more useful overall than monk healers. (I couldn't have stated that more clearly; hell, I even bolded it.)

Wait a second... I don't understand what you're saying. If you agree that necro primaries are better, why would you tell me to go try a bar when you agree it's inferior to a necro primary??

PS: It was MY point that necros are better, not yours

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 26, 2009, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Paul Dawg

I tried the bar, it still has some energy problems even with Channeling but not quite as much as other bars would. I ran it with a Minion Bomber that had some prots and a chanelling ritualist with SoH and Smite Hex/Condition.
High spec dwayna's Sorrow is indeed very powerful, with 470 potential partyheal running around you shouldnt worry about aoe at all.

Improvavel

I like my prots on Necros.

Paul Dawg · Jul 26, 2009, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Wait a second... I don't understand what you're saying. If you agree that necro primaries are better, why would you tell me to go try a bar when you agree it's inferior to a necro primary??

PS: It was MY point that necros are better, not yours

You don't understand what I'm saying because you're all hopped up to fire out a response before you've fully read and understood what I've written. Go back to the previous page and look at the post where I gave the monk bar in the first place. I said IN BOLD that primary necros are better overall because they can do more things. Here's a snip:

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Where primary necroes stand out is their ability to do more than just heal. Take this bar, for example (modified from Sabway):

8+1+1 soul reaping, 12 restoration, 10 channeling
Xinrae's weapon
splinter weapon
weapon of warding
mend body and soul
spirit light
protective was Kaolai
life
foul feast

That's not going to HEAL quite as efficiently as the Mo/Me bar, but it's going to do much, much more. The splinter weapon is a gem, and don't forget that foul feast is the most versatile condition-removal skill in the whole game. So overall, I'd have to say that the N/Rt bar is more useful.

The question isn't whether primary necros are better than monk healers; we wouldn't have a thread if that were the case.

And to answer your question about why I would use a monk bar if I agree that primary necros are better overall: It's because there are many times when you need to use a monk. There are missions that require a monk. Or sometimes you're playing with a guildie who doesn't have access to all three necros. Use your imagination!

AtomicMew · Jul 26, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

You don't understand what I'm saying because you're all hopped up to fire out a response before you've fully read and understood what I've written. Go back to the previous page and look at the post where I gave the monk bar in the first place. I said IN BOLD that primary necros are better overall because they can do more things.

Paul Dawg, be less snippity please. I understood perfectly what you're saying. But the fact is that you contradict yourself.

Either necros are superior or they are not. You can't say "necros are better, but this monk bar I'm presenting isn't inferior." That's a contradiction.

If you think that your monk bar can outheal a necro DEDICATED to healing, well that's a pretty dubious claim. But at any rate, a necro can easily go prot/heal hybrid and add more defense than a primary monk can any day.

If you require ONLY healing from your hero, then that probably means your team isn't balanced properly. Again, pure heal is a very bad waste of bar space.

The cases when you are REQUIRED to use a monk hero are few, and as I already said, I use a smiter.

Paul Dawg · Jul 27, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

OK, let me try to clear this up simply, because I'm getting tired of the back-and-forth and the exchange is no longer very fruitful.

1. Primary necroes are more useful overall than primary monk heroes because they can do many more things. Primary necroes are probably the most useful monk heroes in the whole game.

2. Because of Point 1, I'd much rather bring a N/Rt like the bar I posted than any monk healer.

3. That said, I don't agree that primary necroes are the best HEALERS. I don't agree that a primary necro bar devoted entirely to healing can outheal the Mo/Me bar that I posted. 14 healing prayers and 13 divine favor does make a difference. (Edited to add: For what it's worth, where primary monks really are inferior is smiting--or precisely what you're recommending. They can't handle the energy demand and eventually just peter out. The only primary monk bars that have no energy problems are pure healers. Hybrids have a hard time and smiters simply fail. Only a N/Mo can be a great smiter.)

4. Lastly, stop it with the "If you need this, then you must suck," "If you need that, then you must suck" comments. It's just testosterone talking.

Anyway, Point 4 isn't really necessary because I'm done with this topic.

AtomicMew · Jul 28, 2009, 03:03 AM // 03:03

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4. Lastly, stop it with the "If you need this, then you must suck," "If you need that, then you must suck" comments. It's just testosterone talking.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I haven't said anything resembling those quotes.

So now that we've cleared most things up, there are only 2 points which I'd like to address.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

3. That said, I don't agree that primary necroes are the best HEALERS. I don't agree that a primary necro bar devoted entirely to healing can outheal the Mo/Me bar that I posted. 14 healing prayers and 13 divine favor does make a difference.

Again, that's a dubious claim, but more importantly, besides the point. An N/Rt or N/Mo will always bring more to the table.

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really are inferior is smiting--or precisely what you're recommending. They can't handle the energy demand and eventually just peter out. The only primary monk bars that have no energy problems are pure healers. Hybrids have a hard time and smiters simply fail. Only a N/Mo can be a great smiter.)

Only N/Mo can be a great smiter...? First, see point 4 of your post.

Secondly, if you have multiple melee, blessed signet alone takes care of your e-management needs.
If not, there's castigation signet combined with mantra of inscriptions and/or ether signet.